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| Tiers; Do they exist? | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 17 2008, 03:18 AM (875 Views) | |
| 47drift | Apr 17 2008, 03:18 AM Post #1 |
"I rock."
  ![]](http://209.85.117.197/static/1/pip_r.png)
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I personally believe that tiers don't exist this time around, simply because all the characters seem to have equal high and low points in Brawl. To me, the only thing that matters when it comes to being "good" at Brawl is the player. If the player is good, the character is good. Simple as that. Thoughts. Post them. If you can prove me wrong, go right ahead. I'll still stand by my opinion though, so no pointless bickering. To me, you see, tires don exits. |
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| Berserker Swordsman | Apr 17 2008, 04:48 AM Post #2 |
AMAZINGJOBSQUIRTLE
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The character isn't good if the player is good, the player is good if the player is good. Bowser sucks either way. >_> |
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| Giga Drill Breaker | Apr 17 2008, 05:25 AM Post #3 |
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I like to think they dont exist, but then I see Link/Toon Link....>_> |
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| Berserker Swordsman | Apr 17 2008, 05:25 AM Post #4 |
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AMAZINGJOBSQUIRTLE
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There's minimal difference between them. >_> |
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| Giga Drill Breaker | Apr 17 2008, 05:27 AM Post #5 |
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Not really.  Toon Link is faster, has better smashes and his projectiles do more damage, and is still fairly heavy. Pretty sure his melee attacks do either a bit more or a bit less than Link's
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| Berserker Swordsman | Apr 17 2008, 05:32 AM Post #6 |
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AMAZINGJOBSQUIRTLE
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Faster - Link is stronger (omg, power vs. speed debate =L) Better smashes - Umm...Which one? Toon Link's Forward Smash may have both hits connect regularly, but Link's first slash is good enough to do more. Their Down Smashes are the same in that regard. The Up Smashes aren't even that different...If you're hitting with Toon Link's Up Smash, you're hitting with Link's. Projectiles doing more damage - Whee. Link's Gale Boomerang allows for more utility, though. Faster bow ftw too. Melee attacks - Yes, most characters do a bit more or a bit less than Link, Link included (no, there is no typo here). |
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| Memento Mori | Apr 17 2008, 05:40 AM Post #7 |
Founder
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Link's barely stronger. T. Link's second hit of his Fsmash will KO just as well as Link's. It's not just the Fsmash. The first hit of TL's dsmash drags the opponent around for the second hit and can send the opponent down and away instead of up. You can't DI out of a single hit (usmash). TL's bombs have more range; Dojo confirms that. Link's bow may charge up and fire faster, but it's easier to dodge because of that. You also forgot to address the fact that TL's recovery is way better than Link's. |
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| Memento Mori | Apr 17 2008, 05:44 AM Post #8 |
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Founder
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Now, to be more general: Brawl is a fighting game. Every fighting game -- every single one -- has tiers. It doesn't matter if the difference is minute; there will be a difference. And don't say, "But in the right hands blah blah blah." Why does Possible Low Tier Character have to be in the right hands while Possible High Tier Character has to be in the wrong hands? Tiers come into play when both players have the "right hands." |
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| Berserker Swordsman | Apr 17 2008, 05:56 AM Post #9 |
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AMAZINGJOBSQUIRTLE
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This would assume that two players are equal in skill: something that is never true. |
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| Memento Mori | Apr 17 2008, 06:08 AM Post #10 |
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That's why tiers are theoretical. The basic tenet of tiers is that they are less important than skill. Seriously. You haven't said anything new. |
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| Silver Dragoon | Apr 17 2008, 07:47 AM Post #11 |
Trainer of Charz, Squirts, and Ivy
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To me, they still do exist. However, it is not as bad as Melee was, where 2/3 of the cast was unplayable at tourney levels. |
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| Cloud | Apr 17 2008, 08:17 AM Post #12 |
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^^This, basically. Though, Brawl is a lot more balanced than Melee ever was. I normally don't pay attention to it anyways. |
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| Berserker Swordsman | Apr 17 2008, 09:24 AM Post #13 |
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AMAZINGJOBSQUIRTLE
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Then why should we care? >_> As in, what's the point of making this topic? Minus, "Oh, you can post whatever you want in the place as long as you don't offend people." You aren't gaining anything from talking about tiers. |
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| Memento Mori | Apr 17 2008, 01:41 PM Post #14 |
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Because, despite being theoretical, tiers still affect the game. Remember, relativity and the Pythagorean theorem are both theories, but try denying that they're real. In your first post, you said that Bowser sucks. In Melee, this was true; Bowser was low tier. However, there was a competitive player, username Gimpyfish, that mained Bowser and used him in tournaments. He was good, and he did well..... But he never won a tournament. And the general consensus of the competitive community is that the reason for this is his use of a low-tier character. So tiers do affect the game, and they are worth talking about. |
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| Jin | Apr 17 2008, 05:14 PM Post #15 |
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Simply? Tiers exist. Regardless of what you wish to believe, tiers do exist. (Tires dos exits) Reason being? This is a fighting game, and like all of them, it has tiers. Sure, skill certainly does matter, but you put up 1v1 matches of level 9 computers, I bet you every time the one who is Bowser is going to lose to the one who is Toon Link or Marth. |
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| Berserker Swordsman | Apr 17 2008, 05:22 PM Post #16 |
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AMAZINGJOBSQUIRTLE
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That shows superior CPU settings, not superior characters. |
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| Jin | Apr 17 2008, 06:09 PM Post #17 |
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Essentially lvl 9 computers are computers of the same skill and computation ability, it's the best way to see which character is a higher tier. |
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| Giga Drill Breaker | Apr 19 2008, 09:21 AM Post #18 |
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No. Some CPUs are absoutely idiotic. |
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| Doob Zurz | Apr 19 2008, 10:24 AM Post #19 |
Super Special Awesome GSF Designer
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Every fighting game has tiers, unfortunately. Try and beat Magneto with Roll on Marvel Vs Capcom... But, it's true, Brawl is much more balanced than Melee. Alot of the characters in Melee, no matter how skilled the player, couldn't out fight someone of decent enough skill using a top tier character if they were using a low tier. I don't see why this is such an argument...it's a simple enough concept to understand... A lvl 9 Pit poses no challenge for my (severely gimpy and terrible) Meta Knight, but a lvl 9 just-about-anything-else destroys him. All the characters have different lvl 9 skillz. In fact, I got stomped a little while ago by a level 9 Donkey Kong, and I was using Wolf... |
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| Jin | Apr 19 2008, 11:45 AM Post #20 |
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Just like humans, everybody has an off day |
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| KFox | Apr 19 2008, 01:51 PM Post #21 |
It's the Pii to the Oh-Kay-Ee-Em-Oh-En!
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Tiers exist. In almost any fighting game, and especially in a game like this with so many factors-- attack power, size, weight, reach, speed, priority, etc, etc, etc. The programmers couldn't have possibly made it totally fair. They tried-- and this game is much more balanced than Melee-- but there will always be some difference. The more debatable points are who is in which tier, and whether the tier difference between characters is great enough that it offsets the skill difference between players. Especially with Brawl, since it draws from so many fantastic games, we as humans may like or dislike a character based on personal preference drawn from aesthetic appearance, storyline, whether we liked the game he/she came from, etc.. it's nice to believe that, no matter what, Our Favorite Character will be good enough. But Brawl is a separate game. Keyword: game. These factors may (and should!) matter to us, but they don't factor into the number crunching computer. And speaking of computers, they're not a great way to judge tiers. The computer players are made up of scripts created by programmers, who were attempting to synthesize human strategy. It's not exactly perfect. A level 8 computer might beat a level 9 with the same character. It's weird, and inaccurate. Still great practice for humans though. |
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| Giga Drill Breaker | Apr 19 2008, 02:00 PM Post #22 |
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Its different when the computers are programmed terribly. 
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| Jin | Apr 19 2008, 07:49 PM Post #23 |
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Are you kidding me? The AI literally LEARNS from you. |
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| Berserker Swordsman | Apr 19 2008, 07:54 PM Post #24 |
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AMAZINGJOBSQUIRTLE
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PLAYOFFS?! WHA-PLAYOFFS?! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! |
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| Jin | Apr 19 2008, 09:17 PM Post #25 |
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<_< I made it farther then you in the tournament, tiers? I think so. |
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